Legislature(2013 - 2014)BARNES 124
03/05/2013 01:30 PM House TRANSPORTATION
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| Public Testimony New Design of the Alaska Class Ferry (acf) | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
JOINT MEETING
HOUSE TRANSPORTATION STANDING COMMITTEE
SENATE TRANSPORTATION STANDING COMMITTEE
March 5, 2013
1:32 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
HOUSE TRANSPORTATION
Representative Peggy Wilson, Chair
Representative Doug Isaacson, Vice Chair
Representative Lynn Gattis
Representative Jonathan Kreiss-Tomkins
SENATE TRANSPORTATION
Senator Dennis Egan, Chair
MEMBERS ABSENT
HOUSE TRANSPORTATION
Representative Eric Feige
Representative Craig Johnson
Representative Bob Lynn
SENATE TRANSPORTATION
Senator Fred Dyson, Vice Chair
Senator Anna Fairclough
Senator Click Bishop
Senator Hollis French
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
PUBLIC TESTIMONY ON DESIGN CONCEPT REPORT FOR THE DAY BOAT FERRY
- HEARD
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
No previous action to record
WITNESS REGISTER
REUBEN YOST, Deputy Commissioner
Department of Transportation & Public Facilities (DOT&PF)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions about ferry scheduling,
staffing, and the roll on/roll off loading concept.
MIKE KORSMO, representing himself
Skagway, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Expressed concern that the new plan does not
necessarily reduce travel time or increase current capacity and
doesn't make travel any easier; and while it may look like we're
getting two boats for the price of one, terminal modifications
for a roll on/roll off system and other ancillary expenses
weren't included in the figures.
DAVID HAYFEE
Southeast Alaska Conservation Council (SEACC)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the original plan of an Alaska
class ferry (ACF), as its design was versatile enough to meet
the demands of all communities in Southeast Alaska.
DON ETHERIDGE, representing himself
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Expressed concerns about the design of the
new vessel.
SANDY WILLIAMS, representing himself
Douglas, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Characterized this vessel as "design by
committee," which is "what got us into trouble in the first
place."
MALCOLM MENZIES, representing himself
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Welcomed the department's position on
reducing ferry costs and the new design of the Alaska class
ferry, and if open decks was a valid concern, he was sure the
design would be modified. He did know from sailing on Lynn Canal
that state rooms and fancy meals were not needed. "We just need
to be able to get there."
NANCY RATNER, representing herself
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Said "Anyone who has spent any time in Lynn
Canal knows that the governor's latest proposed ferry design is
inappropriate for Lynn Canal conditions."
BILL HOPKINS, representing himself
No address provided
POSITION STATEMENT: He read the accounts of the new ferry design
and thought it was all sub-standard with the clam shell bow
doors, open car deck aft, reduced cargo carrying capacity, no
unaccompanied vehicles allowed, vending machines, and an
unmanned engine room.
STAN SELMAR, Mayor
Skagway, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Stated "We have this wonderful highway
system on the water that needs to be maintained and the current
reduced size day boat isn't the answer, especially not this
version."
STEPHANIE SCOTT, Mayor
Haines, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Said the thing to do is to go back to the
ACF design, for which we have already spent $3 million, and
attempt to publically "tweak" it, and if we must, abandon the
commitment to building in state, accept federal subsidies and
build the boat outside Alaska.
ROB GOLDBERG, representing himself
Haines, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Had reservations about the day boat design,
especially the open car deck, but focused suggestions more on
the inefficiencies of its proposed schedule.
DANNY GONCE, representing himself
Haines, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Said that additional power would be needed
on the upper Lynn Canal grid for over-nighting a ferry in Haines
and related other concerns over the new design.
ROBERT VENABLES, member
Marine Transportation Advisory Board (MTAB)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Reported that he was listening to the
discussion of the ferry design issues.
CAPTAIN JOHN FALVEY, General Manager
Alaska Marine Highway System (AMHS)
Department of Transportation & Public Facilities (DOT&PF)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Said that the AMHS will continue taking
input, including from masters and crew, and that the new vessel
may end up looking very different.
KATHLEEN MENKE, representing herself
Haines, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Said the state can't afford a failed
experiment and for safety, health, and commerce, urged taking
the federal money and putting the original plan out to bid again
or building the ferry in Alaska and budgeting for it.
ACTION NARRATIVE
1:32:03 PM
CHAIR DENNIS EGAN called the joint meeting of the House and
Senate Transportation Standing Committees to order at 1:32 p.m.
Representatives Gattis, Kreiss-Tomkins, Isaacson, Chair P.
Wilson and Senator Egan were present at the call to order.
^Public Testimony New Design of the Alaska Class Ferry (ACF)
Public Testimony on the Day Boat Ferry
1:32:33 PM
CHAIR EGAN announced that the only order of business would be
public testimony on the draft conceptual design of the Alaska
ferry.
1:33:12 PM
REUBEN YOST, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Transportation &
Public Facilities (DOT&PF), Juneau, Alaska, said they had set up
a website under the Alaska Class Ferry Project and that people
could submit emails on it through March, because the design
study report had been pushed back into April. They would also
take public comments on the report when it is released in April.
1:35:01 PM
MIKE KORSMO, representing himself, Skagway, Alaska, said he was
"just a tugboat captain" who serves on the Skagway Assembly and
the MTAB board; he had also been very involved with the Marine
Highway System under the Southeast Conference.
He said Captain Falvey and his team had been a doing a great job
running the system for the last five or six years and that the
issue of the change in ferry plans is extremely important to
Lynn Canal residents and those decisions affecting them must be
well thought out.
MR. KORSMO expressed concern that the new plan as presented
earlier did not necessarily reduce travel time or increase
current capacity, and didn't make travel any easier. And while
on paper it may look like we're getting two boats for the price
of one, some issues arise including the terminal modifications
for a roll on roll off system that hadn't been accounted for. He
wanted the best system and was glad to see the department slow
down a bit.
1:38:20 PM
CHAIR EGAN asked if he was still a member of the Martine
Transportation Advisory Board (MTAB).
MR. KORSMO indicated that he was.
1:38:38 PM
DAVID HAYFEE, Southeast Alaska Conservation Council (SEACC),
Juneau, Alaska, supported the original plan of an Alaska class
ferry (ACF), as its design was versatile enough to meet the
demands of all communities in Southeast Alaska. In 2011 he
visited Alaska Ship and Dry-dock in Ketchikan and toured their
facilities and everyone supported construction of the new ACF in
Ketchikan. It was originally designed to handle the Lynn Canal
route safely and reliably in all seasons as well as all other
routes in the region including Icy Strait, Chatham Strait,
Frederick Sound and Clarence Strait.
He said the ferry system is the economic and social lifeblood
for many communities in Southeast Alaska. Having safe and
reliable travel is important to Hoonah, Gustavus, Pelican,
Angoon, Kake, Petersburg, Wrangell, Skagway, and Ketchikan, as
well as Haines, Skagway and Juneau. In the process of designing
the next vessels in AMHS' fleet, it is important to keep all
communities in mind, not just those in Lynn Canal.
MR. HAYFEE expressed similar concern about the open aft design
of the proposed shuttle ferries to those cited by many others
already. Lynn Canal experiences extreme weather conditions
regularly in winter months, and subjecting an open aft ship to
passengers in these conditions needs more public feedback and
department scrutiny.
MR. HAYFEE said that in the last 30 years two ships, the M/S
Estonia and the M/S Herald of Free Enterprise, sank in the North
Sea due to malfunctioning clamshell bow doors. This is of great
concern to those who depend on safe ferry service in the winter
months.
He said that unaccompanied vehicles also often depend on AMHS
service and the proposed shuttle ferries will no longer allow
unaccompanied vans, trailers, or trucks. That will seriously
affect those who depend on ship freight up and down Lynn Canal,
and the originally designed ACF was not the subject of any of
the above safety, reliability or freight-related concerns.
MR. HAYFEE said if these shuttle ferries are intended to serve a
hypothetical ferry terminal at the Katzehin River, as DOT&PF's
Commissioner Kemp stated to the Juneau Chamber of Commerce, then
the design and scope of these vessels are overkill. And if the
vessels are intended to serve the full length of Lynn Canal and
potentially other communities, the design and scope need to
address the public's concern about size, open aft and bow doors.
1:42:00 PM
CHAIR EGAN recognized Representative Lynn and Juneau Mayor
Sanford.
1:42:36 PM
DON ETHERIDGE, representing himself, Juneau, Alaska, said he is
a licensed captain and had spent his entire life in Southeast
Alaska running all sizes and shapes of boats and that he had
concerns about the design of the new vessel. He also had spent
25 years working in the maintenance section for the AMHS and was
familiar with the boats and their abilities. He was not so much
concerned about the bow configuration, which had improved
dramatically since the last couple of accidents (by installing
additional bulkheads), but by using the open stern in Lynn
Canal, because weather conditions many times during the winter
will build up a tremendous amount of ice on the stern. Going
straight on is not a problem, but in Southeast Alaska you never
go straight on to the weather; spray hitting the side of the
ship is what would bring it over the top even with the height of
the walls. Keeping the aft section thawed out during loading and
unloading would also be a problem with an open stern. He had
done crabbing in Lynn Canal and seen dangerous ice buildup
there.
1:45:00 PM
SANDY WILLIAMS, representing himself, Douglas, Alaska, said he
was not a boat designer in any way and characterized this vessel
as "design by committee," which is "what got us into trouble in
the first place." He said the AMHS has finally recognized the
need for efficient operation without jeopardizing safety and
service and the increasing gap between its operating costs and
revenues cannot continue. Everything can't be done for everyone,
like food service and room service and putting vehicles on
without being able to get them off without some help at the
other end. He said this ship would be reviewed extensively by
the Coast Guard and agencies that understand design and he
suggested allowing them to do their job.
1:47:18 PM
MALCOLM MENZIES, representing himself, Juneau, Alaska, said he
was testifying as a passenger. Since his retirement he had taken
the ferry to Juneau/Haines/Skagway at least five times a
summer/fall for recreation in the Interior. His camper ran an
average cost of $.41 a mile to go on the Alaska Highway, but an
average of $1.46 a mile to go on the AMHS. He welcomed the
department's position on reducing the AMHS's ferry costs and its
new design but could understand the concern about the open deck.
However, he couldn't imagine the department designing a ship
without walls or some type of thing to keep the salt spray off
of the deck. If this is a valid concern, he was sure the design
would be modified. He did know from sailing on Lynn Canal that
state rooms and fancy meals were not needed. "We just need to be
able to get there." He said it takes two hours to get on the
ferry and an hour to get off; straight on/straight off will help
decrease the time it takes to get to either Haines or Skagway.
1:49:26 PM
NANCY RATNER, representing herself, Juneau, Alaska, testified
that in the 1980s, while living at a remote cabin on Sullivan
River on Lynn Canal with her husband she observed that Eldred
Rock, about 20 miles south of Haines, was consistently the
windiest location in the Inside waters as per the Coast Guard
marine observation broadcasts. Also, the seas in Lynn Canal can
change from flat to 12 foot breakers in less than an hour.
Further, in a relatively warm winter, the weather often turns to
snow and freezing conditions north of Endicott River. "Anyone
who has spent any time in Lynn Canal knows that the governor's
latest proposed ferry design is inappropriate for Lynn Canal
conditions." Ironically, right after the governor scrapped the
350 foot ferry, the M/V LeConte sailing was canceled due to
storm force winds, 11 foot seas and freezing spray in Lynn
Canal, she said.
In addition to being an inappropriate design for Lynn Canal
weather conditions, the proposed day ferries are too limited in
range and usefulness. In the fall, winter and spring when the
fleet of ferries is undergoing yearly maintenance, the proposed
day boat ferries would be unable to fill in the scheduling gaps
or to accommodate changes of scheduling due to mechanical
problems.
MS. RATNER expressed concern that trailers and vans
unaccompanied by a tractor and a driver will no longer be
allowed on the proposed ferry and DOTPF has not addressed how
the current freight traffic on the ferries will be accommodated.
She said the public spoke loud and clear during the planning
process that the 350 foot ACF would best serve the needs of the
community and better than smaller shuttle ferries. It feels like
an insult to the public process to change plans now. She also
felt it was a waste of money to build two ferries with limited
usefulness. A ferry should be built that could be used in all
communities. The only reasonable and safe use for this style
ferry in Lynn Canal is as a shuttle if the Juneau access road
were built, but to build these ferries now on the hope and the
prayer that Juneau will have a road someday is a waste of
limited resources.
MS. RATNER said while it would be nice to have the ferry built
in Ketchikan, the priority should be to design and build one
that is safe and can serve all Southeast communities as needed.
In comparing the costs of the 300 foot ferry versus the smaller
day ferries, the additional cost of modifying existing ferry
terminals needs to be included as do the additional planning
costs.
She also suspected that the current estimate would increase as
design details get worked out, and she doubted that the full
cost of building two limited-use ferries would be much less than
building one 300 foot ACF if the additional costs are added.
Neither the Haines nor Skagway ferry terminals could accommodate
this style of ferry. And since the new ferry design is best used
as a shuttle ferry, the $460 million cost for building the road
out of Juneau should be considered as part of the cost. To help
with the additional revenue needed to build the 300 foot ferry,
she suggested using the $10 million that the Governor proposed
for the Juneau access improvement project (the road out of
Juneau).
MS. RATNER said she thought the Alaska class ferry design was
best, because it is more versatile and can be used in all
Southeast communities when other ferries are offline due to
maintenance or unforeseen circumstances. The governor's proposal
is inappropriate for the extreme weather conditions of Lynn
Canal; its use would be limited and it is a more expensive
option when all the planning and infrastructure costs of
operating shuttle ferries in Lynn Canal are considered.
1:54:59 PM
BILL HOPKINS, representing himself, said he was a retired AMHS
ferry Master since 2006, last working on the Kennecott for eight
years. He said the clam shell bow doors, open car deck aft,
reduced cargo carrying capacity, no unaccompanied vehicles
allowed, vending machines, and an unmanned engine room were all
sub-standard features in the new ferry design.
Frozen sprinkler and fresh water systems could be expected with
an open car deck, because wind vortices over a superstructure
allow freezing spray to land just about anywhere on a ship.
Having no heat for pets and livestock would also was a problem
he foresaw.
As far as an unmanned engine room goes, Mr. Hopkins said once he
had oil and fuel lines rupture under pressure that sprayed
flammable mist onto hot engine manifolds. Without someone down
there to immediately take care of a problem, there would have
been a fire. He had experienced engine problems and predicted
fires would result. It also happened on the large cruise ship
Carnival Triumph. He said this is not Puget Sound, and designers
and planners have a difficulty with that fact. He said the
legislature needed to review the roll on/roll off accident on
the Harold of Free Enterprise on March 5, 1987 in the English
Channel when 193 crew and passengers were lost, followed by the
ferry Estonia in the Baltic Sea on September 28, 1994 when 852
passengers and crew were lost, for some perspective.
In August 2003, the AMHS sold the M/V Bartlett on E-Bay and one
of the reasons cited was impending federal regulations for its
visor bow that opened vertically rather than horizontally, like
clam shell doors. He felt the DOTPF had done everything except
the right thing and have spent millions of dollars on high speed
ferries and their operations, but those are limited to seas of
seven feet or less. While improvements have probably been made,
things happen in rough seas. Now AMHS is about to spend millions
on shuttle ferries that can only function in Lynn Canal, and
that is only 75 miles of the 3,700 mile Alaska Marine Highway
System.
None of this advances the replacement of the Malaspina, the
Matanuska or the Taku, he said. The department should have been
replacing the aging mainliners all along, especially the ocean-
going Tustumena, which was very disappointing. The Alaska Marine
Highway needs real ships with through-route schedules like
Prince Rupert to Skagway, and if allowed to do its job, it
would be very difficult to argue for a half billion dollar
highway up Lynn Canal. This [new plan] does not live up to the
standards and expectations of the Alaska Marine Highway
founders, which is regrettable.
2:01:16 PM
STAN SELMAR, Mayor, Skagway, Alaska, said after hearing about
these accidents at sea it is "pretty rewarding" that we are in
our 50th year and have had no fatal accident, probably due to
the great people who are operating our vessels in all kinds of
weather. He had three issues with the AMHS; first was building
the Skagway ferry terminal perpendicular to the wind, which
eventually got changed; second was in 1975 when his mother died
in Juneau and he had to buy a ticket for her to come back to
Skagway in a hearse; and third, he was concerned about using the
public process to get the 350 foot ACF and then having that
public input turned into the day boat concept.
He said he had not heard from DOTPF as to how they could put a
roof over the open aft area or other solutions, but he had seen
that even the DOT uses unaccompanied vehicles to help with the
cost of moving things from port to port in Southeast Alaska.
That won't change with whatever kind of ferry we have. We have
this wonderful highway system on the water that needs to be
maintained, and the current reduced size day boat isn't the
answer, especially not this version. He said, "Let's get another
independent engineer to tell us how to design what they've got
so far and put that out for consideration." He also wanted the
Marine Highway Service in the DOT&PF to be returned to the
Alaska Marine Highway Service.
2:05:08 PM
STEPHANIE SCOTT, Mayor, Haines Borough, Haines, Alaska, read
prepared testimony as follows:
Thank you Chairman Egan, Chairwoman Wilson, Senators,
Representatives. My name is Stephanie. I live in
Haines. And I do have the honor to be the mayor of the
Haines Borough. I have traveled the Alaska Marine
Highway for over 40 years. I have a strong sense of
the importance of AMHS to intra and interstate
commerce.
We have a design for an Alaska Class Ferry that has
been vetted by years of public and legislative process
but it was scuttled in December and replaced three
months later with the Day Boat Alaska Class Ferry
Concept Design produced by Coastwise Corporation. By
the end of the month, DOT/PF intends to take this
radically new concept to a higher design level. I
think this is a grave mistake. Let me take a few
minutes to point out flaws in the concept and then I
will make two suggestions. The concept report suffers
from:
• Brevity and lack of clarity regarding the process
for public response to the draft design concept;
• Lack of evidence for the reliability and safety of
bow clam shell doors in the tough seas of the Lynn
Canal; • lack of discussion of the impact of icing and
snow on vehicles on the open aft deck and cost of
mitigating those
• The flawed presumption of reduced ridership or
vehicle capacity requirements in the inclement months.
• Lack of discussion of the impact of the very strong
currents at the Haines terminal on the plan to hold
the vessel at the ramp for loading and unloading with
propulsion only;
• A discrepancy in the report regarding the passenger
capacity of the vessels;
• Failure to explain why there are many fewer seats
provided than the number of passengers the vessel is
certified to accommodate;
• Failure to explore the implication of the statement
that the car deck should be designed to accommodate
passengers while the vessel is underway;
• Failure to explore the economic impact of the
proposed standard of "no unaccompanied vessels" on
freight to Haines;
• The economic impact on electrical rates in Haines if
a vessel home ported here is required to tie into
shore power;
• The improbability of the positive economics of
running a ferry back and forth between Haines and
Skagway more than once a day; especially in light of
this year's traffic patterns that show vessels sailing
south from Haines to be more frequently fully booked
compared to vessels sailing north to Skagway;
• The institutionalization of inconvenience and delay
to Skagway southbound passengers as well as Juneau
passengers northbound to Skagway by the plan to
require them to disembark in Haines and reembark on a
different vessel to sail south or north;
• The dependency of the new vessel on new or modified
ferry terminals; it seems that the ground breaking for
the $20 million terminal for Haines must coincide with
the January 2014 keel laying - and this in a time of
ever shrinking transportation dollars for Alaska. If
the building and boat are not exquisitely
synchronized, what happens to this vessel's service
schedule since it is so very specifically designed for
the upper Lynn Canal?
2:09:12 PM
MS. SCOTT continued:
[I suggest that] the planners become as familiar with
the characteristics of the upper Lynn Canal inside
passage as they have demonstrated that they are with
the Haines Highway; that DOT/PF and Coastwise
Corporation bring their concept to Haines and other
communities and present it to us. Does this sound like
a familiar activity? It should. It is. It's been done
before for the Alaska Class Ferry design, now
scuttled. My second suggestion is more important and
more fundamental with respect to the situation we now
find ourselves in. I suggest that we return to the
hard won Alaska Class Ferry design and proudly
acknowledge that the original concept did morph, the
mission did creep. After 4 years of public process and
two years of legislative review, it morphed and crept
to an improved design and mission. The dangerous bow
doors were eliminated, the 12-hour rule was abandoned,
crew quarters added - and the idea of building a
Haines/Juneau shuttle replaced with the broader idea
of replacing the 50-year old Malaspina, lifting the
entire system to an improved standard of service and
reliability; this, in addition and never instead of,
improving service on the ever so lucrative run from
points south/north to the Haines and Klondike
Highways. The mission crept and the design morphed
into a better mission, a better design.
I submit that the thing to do is to go back to the ACF
design, for which we have already spent $3 million,
and attempt to publically "tweak" it, and if we must,
abandon the commitment to building in state, accept
Federal subsidies, and build the boat. The Alaska
Marine Highway is, after all, an essential link
between Alaska and the lower 48. It is traveled by the
entire nation, not just those of us who live here.
Though not a road, treat the Inside Passage as the
interstate highway that it is. If, in order to achieve
this change, you have to separate the Alaska Marine
Highway from DOT/PF, then consider doing so. Thank
you.
2:11:34 PM
ROB GOLDBERG, representing himself, Haines, Alaska, stated he
was chair of the Haines Borough Planning Commission. He said he
had provided written comments to the committee, but also had
some remarks.
2:12:42 PM
MR. GOLDBERG said he had reservations about the day boat design,
but today he wanted to focus more on the operations use. He said
the proposal does not increase capacity over the existing use of
the Malaspina as a day boat. Using an entire ship for a
Haines/Skagway run was very inefficient, because that segment
does not have enough traffic to support an entire ship. Capacity
could be doubled on the Juneau to Haines segment, where it is
needed, in this way: run one ship in a Haines/Juneau/Haines loop
(suggested in the proposal) within a 12-hour crew day; run the
other ship in a Juneau/Haines/Skagway/Haines/Juneau loop as is
done now. However, he realized that with crew time on either end
of the voyage this loop cannot be done in a 12-hour crew day. It
currently takes 14 hours running time or a 15-hour crew day, so
he suggested putting on a crew of 12 instead of 9 (in the
proposal); then every crew member would work an 11-hour day and
have four hours of break time. The addition of three crew
members would allow the passenger and vehicle capacity to be
doubled between Juneau and Haines. This schedule would also
allow enough time to load the AML vans, as movement of these
vans is critical to the whole region.
MR. GOLDBERG said he had also had concerns about the open car
deck; not only freezing spray, but snow, will have to be cleared
before the cars can move. Putting a roof over this area seems
simple enough to do. He was also concerned about the ability of
the clam shell bow doors to withstand the rough seas in Lynn
Canal and to keep from freezing shut. He agreed that in reading
the proposal, it seemed like the design is sub-standard and it
doesn't make sense to scrimp on design and crew if we end up
with ships that don't work and add inefficiencies to the system.
2:15:48 PM
DANNY GONCE, representing himself, Haines, Alaska, said he
worked for Alaska Power and Telephone and said that additional
power would be needed on the upper Lynn Canal grid for over-
nighting a ferry in Haines. While it is a little amount of
power, it would be good for them to have additional capacity on
line in the form of a hydroproject.
He expressed concern about the open aft and the clam shell
doors, but applauded the AMHS for looking at ways to make the
ferry more efficient, both in increasing capacity and reducing
costs if it can be made to work as designed.
He said the environmental conditions in the standard mission
requirements have a lot of objectives; they're measurable and
delineated. "Sea keeping" in the next section, uses words like
anticipated and passenger comfort and it would be hard to come
up with firm numbers for that. The same section talks about
limiting the analysis to bow and stern sea keeping trials, and
if this boat was to be used for cross canal runs at Burner's Bay
to William Henry or from Katzehin to Haines there would be
considerable cross-weather passage. That would need to be
considered as well.
2:18:45 PM
CHAIR EGAN thanked him for his remarks.
ROBERT VENABLES, Marine Transportation Advisory Board (MTAB),
Juneau, Alaska, reported in that he was listening to the
discussion of Alaska class ferry (ACF).
2:20:06 PM
CHAIR EGAN invited Mr. Yost to come forward again for one more
question.
2:20:27 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTIS asked what the reasoning was behind not
letting unaccompanied freight and vehicles on.
2:21:00 PM
MR. YOST answered that the distance between Juneau and Haines is
very close to what can be accomplished in a 12-hour work day.
One of the reasons for "roll on/roll off/drive through" is to
load and unload as quickly as possible. If you allow
unaccompanied vans, they have to be loaded on; then the tractor
disconnects from the trailer and drives off. At the other end,
after the passenger vehicles have departed, once again tractors
have to be backed on and vans pulled off. The letter addressed
to the joint committees entails how many unaccompanied vans are
currently being transported and the different ways that could be
addressed.
2:21:59 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTIS said she read the letter, but was unsure
of what a swing tractor was and asked if you can have
unaccompanied personal vehicles where you load it on one end and
your husband picks it up at the other end.
MR. YOST said that might be possible, but hadn't been addressed
yet.
2:22:41 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTIS said she heard discussion about vending
machines and lack of food and asked if people would bring
coolers, and if water and a microwave would be available.
MR. YOST answered yes; the vending machines would include more
than just snack food, so it could be heated up in a microwave.
The road map design has a dining area because they assumed
people would bring their own food. The level of vending machines
had not been decided yet, and the idea was to not have crew that
are dedicated to serving meals.
2:23:20 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTIS confirmed that food could be brought on.
MR. YOST explained the idea of a swing engine is that the
freight company would have a tractor that isn't designed for
going up the highway from Haines to Anchorage, but is sort of
like a yard engine. In the case of transporting a van north, a
tractor would pull the van onto the vessel, stay on the vessel
and pull it off when it gets to Haines, and then the tractor is
"swung out." In other words, the tractor that normally would
have been picking up that van and hauling it to Anchorage would
couple up to the tractor and takes it. The swing tractor
basically just makes the circuit that the ferry makes. He said
that is just one of the possibilities that he had discussed with
MTAB.
2:24:34 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTIS said she wasn't sure about the term
"swinging" in this context.
MR. YOST explained that the term comes from swinging it into
play and out of play rather than have it stay with the tractor
and heading up the highway to Anchorage or whatever the
destination is.
2:25:02 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTIS asked if it was hooked up to a trailer and
pulled it off and comes back on with a different trailer and
goes the other way.
MR. YOST said that was correct. Sometimes it would come back
unattached to a trailer, because the vehicle numbers differ
going north and south.
2:25:34 PM
CHAIR EGAN asked if this is like Tok and Horizon is doing when
bringing vans off of big ships in Anchorage.
MR. YOST said that would be up to the freight company and it
would probably be a street legal tractor, because they would be
hauling from their sort yard.
CHAIR EGAN said the MHS doesn't care about that; they just want
the trailer off the ship.
MR. YOST said that was correct. The idea is that when the bow
door opens that all the vehicles can immediately be driven off.
2:26:18 PM
CHAIR P. WILSON asked him to explain that a little bit about
union contracts and the 12-hour shifts.
MR. YOST explained that Coast Guard regulation dictates how many
hours a person on a vessel can work without rest.
2:26:52 PM
CHAIR P. WILSON asked if a four-hour rest in between would be
okay.
MR. YOST said the problem there with the union contract is
telling a person he working for 12 hours, but he's captured for
16. No union contracts allow that; there's either 12-hour work
or its' a 24-hour vessel. He asked Captain Falvey to confirm
that.
2:27:15 PM
CAPTAIN JOHN FALVEY, General Manager, Alaska Marine Highway
System (AMHS), Department of Transportation & Public Facilities
(DOT&PF), Juneau, Alaska, said the 12-hour day is a Coast Guard
regulation. Technically the crew needs to have 10 hours of rest
every night. It's also a question of where the resting would
happen since the ships don't have staterooms.
2:28:16 PM
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN said he was more concerned about the safety
of the ships than getting on and off a ferry quickly.
MR. YOST responded that there are two sets of issues; one
category is safety and the other is convenience. And service
that has been traditionally provided in the past but may no
longer be available.
With respect to safety, he explained that three different
marine, engineering and architect firms are involved in this
project and the department had received recommendations in the
form of a design concept report from Coastwise Corporation whose
principal marine architect grew up in Juneau and worked for the
MHS for several years before forming his own company. That
recommendation will go to Elliott Bay Design Group that has
designed ferries for the Pacific Northwest, Alaska, Texas, and
the East Coast. The department is also preparing a very detailed
wind and wave analysis of all Lynn Canal, rather than just
recorded winds at Eldred Rock, using a very respected marine
group.
MR. YOST said aside from AMHS expertise, the ship has to be
permitted by the USCG and has to be certified by a
classification society, a worldwide expert in the operation of
that type of vessel. In addition, there are regulations for bow
doors and guidelines to follow in order to have safe ones. Most
of the other issues have to do with the type of service they
will be providing. The uncovered aft roof is not a safety issue
so much as how much it would cost and what other service would
have to be dropped in order to provide it.
2:30:53 PM
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN said he typically pays more attention to the
practical experience of people who captain these ships than
people in an office with all their degrees designing things.
CAPTAIN FALVEY said he understood.
2:31:35 PM
REPRESENTATIVE ISAACSON asked if there was adequate staff to
tend to emergencies since the boiler room is unmanned.
CAPTAIN FALVEY related that three AMHS vessels - the two fast
ferries and the Lituya - already have unmanned engine rooms;
that means there is a high degree of automation and electronic
warning indicators, and the Coast Guard will always certify and
approve the ships via their certificates of inspection, with
emergencies, crowd control and fires in mind. That would fall
under the category of the total crew required. Larger merchant
ships and fast ferries, the newer ships, are often unmanned;
some are 700-800 feet long with only one person in the control
room.
2:33:34 PM
REPRESENTATIVE ISAACSON asked how many numbers of hours of
operation per incident the AMHS has and if anything had put us
on the brink of destroying the safety record that had been built
up over the years.
CAPTAIN FALVEY said he did not think so; engineers are on board,
but they tend to be on the bridge with the operating crew
watching the instrumentation. They have a very good safety
record.
2:34:28 PM
REPRESENTATIVE ISAACSON said during a period of cost cutting he
hoped proven industry standards were being used and that they
were erring on the side of safety.
CAPTAIN FALVEY agreed completely, adding that he had 27 years at
sea with a spotless safety record.
2:35:33 PM
REPRESENTATIVE KREISS-TOMKINS asked whether the DOT/PF had
consulted its captains and masters in producing this design
concept.
CAPTAIN FALVEY answered no, but that is not to say they won't in
the future. This is a road map vessel and a naval architect
firm is in the process of designing it. They would be getting
input from captains.
2:36:27 PM
REPRESENTATIVE KREISS-TOMKINS asked why they hadn't consulted
the captains yet.
CAPTAIN FALVEY replied that they hadn't got to that point yet.
2:36:42 PM
REPRESENTATIVE KREISS-TOMKINS related that a marine engineer
with the ferry system earlier said something about a heated car
deck.
CAPTAIN FALVEY said he may have misspoken; he was referring to a
heated car deck space not the heating of the deck, itself.
2:37:37 PM
CHAIR P. WILSON asked what he meant by a "road map vessel."
CAPTAIN FALVEY explained that it means a "concept vessel," that
is used as a "go forward" to design what they will build.
CHAIR P. WILSON asked if they will hold public hearings and
receive input once the blueprint is finished.
CAPTAIN FALVEY answered yes. He added that the AMHS will take
input, meet with masters and crew, and the vessel may end up
looking very different.
2:39:28 PM
CHAIR EGAN said since "D-day" had been moved back a bit, he
thought affected communities would like the Department of
Transportation & Public Facilities to make presentations to them
before a final decision was made. "It's our highway," he said.
CAPTAIN FALVEY said he will take that under advisement.
2:40:13 PM
MR. YOST said the next step is to provide a design study report,
which will have more analysis of controversial items.
2:40:44 PM
CHAIR EGAN thanked them for their testimony today and apologized
for putting them on the hot spot.
2:40:56 PM
REPRESENTATIVE KREISS-TOMKINS said one underlying concern he had
was that the day boat concept is fundamentally premised on the
12-hour work day as required by Coast Guard regulations, and
right now the run time for the Juneau/Haines schedule is 11
hours and 44 minutes. What if it takes extra minutes to get rid
of accumulated snow and ice after six hours in Lynn Canal, or
the propulsion mooring system doesn't work out quite as well as
anticipated or there is some issue with the bow doors -
unforeseen factors - and it's not possible to regularly operate
it on that route in under 12 hours?
MR. YOST replied that there are several places in the schedule
right now that have allowances for that. For instance, the
turnaround time in Haines is listed as one hour and existing
captains have said that could be shorter. Second, the schedule
was built to demonstrate that it could be done at 15.5 knots,
but that is not top speed of the vessel. You have to show the
Coast Guard that generally you can keep the schedule. After 12
hours is when the rest rule comes into play, and that has
already happened with both the fast ferries.
CAPTAIN FALVEY added that technically the crew must have 70
hours of rest in a 7-day period (10 hours a night) and that
starts from the time the crew walks up the gangway until it
walks down the gangway. He said he believed this vessel will
run faster than 15.5 knots and terminal activity could be
adjusted to utilize night crews to test gear on the boat and get
things ready to sail before the operational crew shows up.
Options exist to operate the vessel in 12 hours.
2:44:29 PM
CHAIR P. WILSON said she hoped the studies for fuel efficiency
would be put to use in figuring out the most economic speed to
run the ferries.
CAPTAIN FALVEY agreed and said they are installing (expensive)
power management systems on the ships that save fuel. It tends
to be more useful on the large mainliners that are running
longer routes when the ship has more time and distance to run.
They are not on the fast ferries or the Lituya, because it
doesn't really pay on the shorter routes. On the shorter run
with the day boat and state of the art engines, the fuel
consumption is very optimal to begin with.
2:46:14 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTIS expressed concern after hearing public
testimony about how the ferry design morphed and then got pulled
back. She got the feeling that the department was not taking
enough public comment. She was really concerned that this time
the new design wouldn't get as much public input and thought
listening to the guys who had been running the boats for the
last 40 years was imperative. She understood the vending
machines and microwaves, but she was talking about folks that
know the weather, the sea spray and the route.
CAPTAIN FALVEY said those were good points and they would talk
with them.
2:48:39 PM
REPRESENTATIVE KREISS-TOMKINS agreed that substantial
institutional knowledge could and should be used despite the
aggressive timeline.
MR.YOST answered that he would take time to get feedback, but
the sense of urgency is due to replacing the M/V Malaspina while
also being under pressure to cut back on operating costs. There
is no deadline, but they were trying to do things as quickly as
possible.
2:51:31 PM
KATHLEEN MENKE, representing herself, Haines, Alaska, said she
had ridden the ferries for 30 years. She related how she took a
trip from Juneau to Haines along with six wrestling teams at the
end of January on the M/V Taku, a 452 foot ferry. Teams often
travel via the ferries, and she urged Representative Wilson to
speak to the coach of the team in Wrangell about that
experience. They had 70 knot winds, 14 foot waves and got to
Haines two hours late. The trip ended up taking over six hours
and was not pleasant even though the M/V Taku is big and sturdy.
MS. MENKE said she couldn't imagine how the new ferry design
would suffice to get children, students, elders, and people who
need health care safely to and from Southeast communities. She
related how the M/V LeConte had been canceled several times this
winter and stated that a 12-hour turnaround was just not
realistic in windy weather.
Further, she said, they were being told this ferry wouldn't work
anywhere else but Lynn Canal, but we are telling them it will
not work in Lynn Canal either. What happened to the 350 foot
mid-size Alaska Class Ferry? They were hoping for it and now it
appears to be a budget issue. This is going down the wrong
track. Fast ferries are fuel guzzlers, and the state can't
afford another failed experiment. She concluded that the best
course of action for the safety, health, and commerce of their
communities is to either take the federal money and put the
original plan out to bid again outside of Alaska, or build the
ferry in Alaska and budget for it.
CHAIR EGAN thanked everyone for their testimony.
2:56:08 PM
There being no further business to come before the committees,
adjourned the House and Senate Transportation Standing
Committees at 2:56 p.m.
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